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Owners : Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:24 pm  
I have been trying to work out what distinguishes Saints from the rest, and in particular us.
I can’t help but think the ownership model at Saints is part of it.
I don’t doubt for one minute the commitment of our owners’ nor their wish to succeed. They are both very successful in their own filled. But, they both have large successful businesses of their own.
At Saints, as far as I can tell, McManus has no other significant business interests. He can devote his full attention to Saints working hand in glove with whoever his CEO and Coach happens to be.
He can’t afford a bad season as it would impact his personal income. That is why he makes relatively quick decisions when he has eg sacking Cunningham.
I’m not saying that alone accounts for their success, nor am I in any way criticising our owners. Just think i’’ts food for thought.
(Ps this is NOT about KF in anyway as I think most people’s views on that subject have been well aired).
Re: Owners : Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:56 pm  
I think it's more to do with having a balanced and settled squad, with complete trust in any academy products coming through and playing in the first team.

1 to 17 know what their job is, both in attack and defence, whoever they may be.
Re: Owners : Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:27 pm  
MorePlaymakersNeeded wrote:
I think it's more to do with having a balanced and settled squad, with complete trust in any academy products coming through and playing in the first team.

1 to 17 know what their job is, both in attack and defence, whoever they may be.


Isn't Saints' dominance, while impressive, just an indicator of how poor the quality of our league now is?

The motto in most sports is that the successful teams don't stand still, they continually look to improve, but for Saints, it's not like they have had to invest and improve over the last 4 years - they simply continue where they left off and inevitably take the top prize, while everyone else continues to go backwards.

I mean, that Leeds side last night, while they did a great job to make it to Old Trafford, was, in reality, a very average side - Richie Myler wasn't great for us in a very good side, Blake Austin was mediocre for us and, from what I saw, was still peddling the same old clueless half back game, which is to boot the ball as high as he can into the night sky and then cross his fingers for an error.

So, while you have to applaud them for making it to the final, you have to question the actual quality of our league that they made it in the first place - if they are the second best side in the league, then the league is in a bad place.

And so while Saints' 4 in a row is a fine achievement, just how good are they in the grand scheme of things - I saw Wellens pre-game building them up as the best of all time, but that is just him doing what a coach of that particular group would do, when, in reality, they are just a very good side in a very poor era - bit like when Klitchsko dominated the HW boxing era, nobody questioned his dominance, but nobody would ever have him near the best of all time.

Personally, I refuse to believe that any side containing LMS should be anywhere near being classed as the best ever - his longevity is all the evidence you need of how poor the quality in the SL is nowadays.
Re: Owners : Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:42 pm  
Dita's Slot Meter wrote:
The motto in most sports is that the successful teams don't stand still, they continually look to improve, but for Saints, it's not like they have had to invest and improve over the last 4 years - they simply continue where they left off and inevitably take the top prize, while everyone else continues to go backwards.


I mean, it’s worth noting on this there are only 6 players who played in both the 2019 grand final and the 2022 one. Makinson, Percival, Lomax, Roby, Knowles and LMS. I’m sure there’d be a few more due to injuries (Walmsley jumps out) but I definitely don’t think it’s fair to suggest we haven’t improved or changed over 4 years. Woolfs approach is very different to Holbrooks, and I have little doubt the 2022 team would beat the 2019 one, the mental fortitude alone is unrecognisable. This 2022 team could have responded to the adversity of the 2019 CC final without panicking for example ;)
Re: Owners : Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:52 pm  
Dita's Slot Meter wrote:
Isn't Saints' dominance, while impressive, just an indicator of how poor the quality of our league now is?

The motto in most sports is that the successful teams don't stand still, they continually look to improve, but for Saints, it's not like they have had to invest and improve over the last 4 years - they simply continue where they left off and inevitably take the top prize, while everyone else continues to go backwards.

I mean, that Leeds side last night, while they did a great job to make it to Old Trafford, was, in reality, a very average side - Richie Myler wasn't great for us in a very good side, Blake Austin was mediocre for us and, from what I saw, was still peddling the same old clueless half back game, which is to boot the ball as high as he can into the night sky and then cross his fingers for an error.

So, while you have to applaud them for making it to the final, you have to question the actual quality of our league that they made it in the first place - if they are the second best side in the league, then the league is in a bad place.

And so while Saints' 4 in a row is a fine achievement, just how good are they in the grand scheme of things - I saw Wellens pre-game building them up as the best of all time, but that is just him doing what a coach of that particular group would do, when, in reality, they are just a very good side in a very poor era - bit like when Klitchsko dominated the HW boxing era, nobody questioned his dominance, but nobody would ever have him near the best of all time.

Personally, I refuse to believe that any side containing LMS should be anywhere near being classed as the best ever - his longevity is all the evidence you need of how poor the quality in the SL is nowadays.


Nostalgia makes you feel all fuzzy about teams of the past. When you look at the teams with Jamie Lyon in, they had players like Tim Jonkers and Mike Bennett in. The Lesley Vainakolo sides had the likes of Matt Cook and Ben Harris. Those sides would get physically battered by this Saints team. If you watch the last 10 minutes of the Grand Final again, look at the intensity of the tackling. The likes of Matty Lees, Sione Mata'utia, Curtis Sironen and Iggy Passi are just teeing off on Leeds, so many impactful hits. We definitely don't attack with the class and fluidity of those sides, but who is stopping those mentioned from getting downfield and who is stopping Lomax and Welsby when we're within range?

In 10 years Saints fans will look back on this team as if they were armour plated cyborgs that couldn't be beaten.It's how it is with sport.

As for your thoughts on LMS, you're way off. He's a superb player, so fit and enthusiastic and fights for everything. He's outstanding defensively and still one of the quickest forwards around, even now. We're meant to lose when Walmsley isn't around and we're meant to drop off when he goes off, but it doesn't happen.
Re: Owners : Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:15 am  
I would fancy the Saints teams who lost 5 GF in a row between 2007 and 2011 to beat the current Saints teams who have won 4 GF in a row, but the fact that, in an era where there is less talent available and it's harder to bring in elite Aussie players, Saints are still the ones at the top, tells us something.

I don't know whether its the ownership model or just the personnel in charge at the top being better, but they are a more effectively run club, and they win for a reason.
Re: Owners : Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:44 am  
Captain Hook wrote:
I have been trying to work out what distinguishes Saints from the rest, and in particular us.
I can’t help but think the ownership model at Saints is part of it.
I don’t doubt for one minute the commitment of our owners’ nor their wish to succeed. They are both very successful in their own filled. But, they both have large successful businesses of their own.
At Saints, as far as I can tell, McManus has no other significant business interests. He can devote his full attention to Saints working hand in glove with whoever his CEO and Coach happens to be.
He can’t afford a bad season as it would impact his personal income. That is why he makes relatively quick decisions when he has eg sacking Cunningham.
I’m not saying that alone accounts for their success, nor am I in any way criticising our owners. Just think i’’ts food for thought.
(Ps this is NOT about KF in anyway as I think most people’s views on that subject have been well aired).


Isn't McManus involved in hedge fund management ?
Re: Owners : Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:16 am  
He's wealthy personally, but not in the same league as Moran or Middleton, I think he worked for HSBC in Hong Kong prior to coming back to St Helens and running the club.

I'm not sure if he is the owner as such though, isn't there another guy Mike Coleman or something who is the money behind it, but very much takes a back seat and allows McManus to run the show?
Re: Owners : Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:39 am  
sally cinnamon wrote:
I would fancy the Saints teams who lost 5 GF in a row between 2007 and 2011 to beat the current Saints teams who have won 4 GF in a row, but the fact that, in an era where there is less talent available and it's harder to bring in elite Aussie players, Saints are still the ones at the top, tells us something.

I don't know whether its the ownership model or just the personnel in charge at the top being better, but they are a more effectively run club, and they win for a reason.

Absolutely spot on this. Yes this Saints team isn't great but they're still doing the business. Super League is a shocking standard at the minute and we're finishing 11th ffs.
Re: Owners : Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:42 pm  
Saddened! wrote:

In 10 years Saints fans will look back on this team as if they were armour plated cyborgs that couldn't be beaten.It's how it is with sport.

As for your thoughts on LMS, you're way off. He's a superb player, so fit and enthusiastic and fights for everything. He's outstanding defensively and still one of the quickest forwards around, even now. We're meant to lose when Walmsley isn't around and we're meant to drop off when he goes off, but it doesn't happen.


These 2 paragraphs absolutely confirm what I said about this Saints' team being a good team in a very poor era.

The fact you are talking of an average Joe like LMS as a 'superb' player just shows how poor the quality of this league is - He wouldn't have made our squad in our (and a few other club's from that era) 2011/12 sides, as a large number of the 34 players who were on the pitch on Saturday night wouldn't have either.

This present SL period really is the Klitchsko era - One very good, well organised competitor taking on a load of mediocre opposition and being made to look unbeatable and invincible by them, but in the overall scheme of things, though you can never ever prove these things 100%, deep down everyone but their most blinkered fans know that they aren't this 'best of all time' that is being thrown about.
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