Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:00 am  

Always rely on the usual suspects for some bewildering ideals of equality. Some of us make money, many of us squander other peoples taxes.

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:51 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

I disagree. There’s no reason you should care, but I do. To be fair, if you paid yourself a bigger wage instead, then you might get poop for excessive director to pay. Wealth is such a burden.

I agree. I don’t doubt you have been the single most important person in building a successful and profitable enterprise. And I acknowledge that my own instinctive prejudices don’t stand up to even my own analysis. Our worldview is very different, but I admire you for making a success of yourself despite a humble start in life. However, you acknowledge yourself that your workers contribute to the profits your company generates - surely that level of contribution (which I know is impossible to accurately quantify) should be reflected, notionally at least, in the tax paid on those profits and the ensuing contribution to society.

I guess it is the whole ‘I provide employment for this many people’ attitude vs the ragged-trousered philanthropist mindset.

That's capitalism - its about who is taking the risk - non of those who contribute to profits stick their hand in their pockets when the company doesn't make a profit e.g. this year the only person doing that is me. So they generate the profits but not the losses - as you say that is beard and cardigan view?

Contribution to society is paid in three ways for me - CT, Employers NI, my own personal taxes

[Mild Rover]

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:04 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

That's capitalism - its about who is taking the risk - non of those who contribute to profits stick their hand in their pockets when the company doesn't make a profit e.g. this year the only person doing that is me. So they generate the profits but not the losses - as you say that is beard and cardigan view?

Contribution to society is paid in three ways for me - CT, Employers NI, my own personal taxes

Okay, but there’s no universally accepted way of valuing contribution or ‘keeping score‘ in a capitalist society, with which to boost our own opinions or diminish those of others. Then, even using your own measure, I think you are reaching slightly.

Obviously our experiences will influence our opinions, but I think we’re better exchanging ideas based on the traditional democracy and equality of the pub, rather than trying to one up on credentials. We’ll just end up sounding like the little lass off Johnny Briggs whose mum was a nurse. We can talk about all the amazing and brilliant stuff I’ve achieved by PM if you’re interested... but why would you be?

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:37 am  

I agree - my company wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for the brilliant people who have worked in it over many many years. If I hadn't risked everything initially there wouldn't be a company in the first place.

People's contribution is measured primarily by their status and their ability to manage risk - the monies are just a by-product of that ability - usually the greater the risk managed the greater the reward - ever thus.

In your world a road sweeper is as valuable as a cardiac surgeon - not in mine.

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:48 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I agree - my company wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for the brilliant people who have worked in it over many many years. If I hadn't risked everything initially there wouldn't be a company in the first place.

People's contribution is measured primarily by their status and their ability to manage risk - the monies are just a by-product of that ability - usually the greater the risk managed the greater the reward - ever thus.

In your world a road sweeper is as valuable as a cardiac surgeon - not in mine.

And yet, a cardiac surgeon earns rather less than a footballer or "influencer".
It is indeed a mixed up messed up world that we live in.

Also, very well paid people using tax avoidance and tax evasion to avoid paying their "share" - is this ok too.?

[Mild Rover]

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:12 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I agree - my company wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't for the brilliant people who have worked in it over many many years. If I hadn't risked everything initially there wouldn't be a company in the first place.

People's contribution is measured primarily by their status and their ability to manage risk - the monies are just a by-product of that ability - usually the greater the risk managed the greater the reward - ever thus.

In your world a road sweeper is as valuable as a cardiac surgeon - not in mine.

There are a lot of elements that are crucial to the success of any operation, commercial or surgical. If nobody had taught you to read or the basics of mathematics you would have found it much more difficult to be successful in business. If the theatre isn’t cleaned properly then the patient is at greater risk no matter how good the surgeon is. Nobody is a island, we’re all interdependent. All the roles in a healthy society are of value but nearly all of us are individually fungible.

One of the distasteful positions among Remainers is the anti-democratic ‘it was the stupid, ill-educated demographic that won the Brexit referendum’ argument (if you can even call it that). Are you saying that the views of an elite, however defined, should be given more weight than the populace as a whole?

Your point on status is interesting. You think risk management is one of the very top considerations in assessing value, likely reflecting your own experience and self-image. However, that wouldn’t apply in a lot of professional environments - to a degree that is unfair in all honesty. That’s the thing with job-snobbery, it is stupid and unfair and, most of all, it doesn’t translate. I’ve been with oncologists who referred to surgeons as ‘meat technicians’, half jokingly, but only half. When people think they form a crucial link in the chain they are absolutely right. When people think they form the crucial link they are very wrong imo, and they’ll be laughed at by others who, ironically, have the same misconception about themselves.

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:13 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

And yet, a cardiac surgeon earns rather less than a footballer or "influencer".
It is indeed a mixed up messed up world that we live in.

Also, very well paid people using tax avoidance and tax evasion to avoid paying their "share" - is this ok too.?

It is legal, like keeping people alive when they serve no useful purpose, many agree or disagree with both, neither has a more or less valid point.

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:52 pm  

WestEndThinker wrote:

It is legal, like keeping people alive when they serve no useful purpose, many agree or disagree with both, neither has a more or less valid point.

Tax evasion most certainly isn't legal and many of the avoidance schemes are border line too.

[Durham Giant]

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:39 pm  

Funny how we have gone from

Eat out to help out

To

Starve a kid to save a Quid

Re: no free meals for the poorest kids ? : Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:43 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

Funny how we have gone from

Eat out to help out

To

Starve a kid to save a Quid

It's called "levelling up", which is Tory speak for looking after those who are better off than the rest.