Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:15 am  

Coopers stats make me wonder just what we can get out of any prop. Surely that’s tactical if he’s taking in 4 carries for 15 metres? This is a guy who had chewed up ground for fun since he came back from the NRL (and in the NRL). I’m at a loss with it all to be honest. It can’t just be a coincidence that we kill every prop from a statistical POV? We all long for Walmsley, Vaughan or even somebody like Dupree at the minute but I’m starting to wonder if even those guys would play for 30 mins and make less than 60-70 metres here.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:25 am  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

A serious question, why are we obsessed with the metres made by the forwards?
We are top for metres made by the team.
A metre is a metre regardless of whether it's Harry Smith or Liam Byrne.

However we are also top for errors made, which IMO is the major problem at the moment.

I think if our props actually took plenty of carries, made more metres per carry (4 is just embarrassing) it would cause less fatigue for the outside backs and perhaps our attack would be more fluid with less errors.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:59 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Coopers stats make me wonder just what we can get out of any prop. Surely that’s tactical if he’s taking in 4 carries for 15 metres? This is a guy who had chewed up ground for fun since he came back from the NRL (and in the NRL). I’m at a loss with it all to be honest. It can’t just be a coincidence that we kill every prop from a statistical POV? We all long for Walmsley, Vaughan or even somebody like Dupree at the minute but I’m starting to wonder if even those guys would play for 30 mins and make less than 60-70 metres here.

Dupree is proving to be a great find isn't he. Not sure if he's off contract, but I'd be all over him for 2024.

Looks like he could be, but I've not looked too deep to see if he's signed an extension:

https://salfordreddevils.net/salford-sign-prop-tyler-dupree-until-end-of-2023/

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:26 am  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

It isn't though is it?
What about tackles made, marker tackles, carries etc etc,.

Fans tend to see the spectacular, rather than the workmanlike.

Brian McTigue was one of the best prop forwards I ever saw, but he never ran 100 metres in a game ever.

It is not just about metres made, it is more how and where those metres are made and where on the pitch. What is the point of someone like Marshall running the ball back 30 metres say from a kick then the next sets we only gain 10 metres from the forwards, the 30 m gain is of little consequence.

What we need are forwards who can gain metres when it matters and get a quicker play the ball and so quicker distribution from dummy half (areas we really, really struggle in) so the half-backs have some space to work in and can use our backs in a better way other than just as battering rams - we might as well play second rows as centres for all the good they do as anything else.

I do not think it is any co-incidence that when we play Saints, Leeds, Catalan or Warrington that our pack become totally ineffective especially if the ground is a bit heavy. We are so reliant on Field, French and Marshall to get us wins that it is painful.

I get the point about someone like McTigue (and Potter, Case and many others) but someone like that and the ones mentioned where streets ahead of anyone we have now.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:01 pm  

As I’ve said before we don’t rely on our props up make meters. It’s definitely tactical.

We use our backs to start sets, secondrows to build sets and generally middles to finish exits sets.

Near the line/in the attacking third we generally use the props to engage the other middles finding certain points on the field to draw in other middles and set up attacking plays.

More often than not if there is an overlap it can be traced to the middle of the field.

In defence they are expected to win the arm wrestle and limit meters by having a higher work rate in this element of the game, I think this is where we have the issue with our middles as they are not managing to dominate/consistently win the wrestle with our current prop rotation.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:00 pm  

It may well be tactical but if the backs do not make metres (esp on heavy pitches etc) then we are stuffed as we do seem to have the option to change things up. We were reliant on French to score two individual tries against Salford to get back into the game, but the last ten minutes or so we seemed to up the work rate noticably and get a bit of a roll on and then scored the King try which was by far the best bit of team play the whole game. Wheras for all the pressure at the start of the second half (3 or 4 sets in a row) we never looked like scoring.If plan A doe snot work then plan B seems to fling it to French or Field and hope.

Watching the team so far I cannot see us beating the likes of Leeds/Saint/Warrington or Catalan at the back end of the season in play-off rugby on heavy pitches as we do not have the forward power to get the opponents going backwards both in the fron row and second row and no amount of tactical play will change that with the players we have.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:42 pm  

I was going to say, Saints and Wire, fair enough, but Leeds aren't that good. But then, on the other hand, Leeds have beaten Saints and Catalans. But I still don't think they're that good.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:08 pm  

moto748 wrote:

I was going to say, Saints and Wire, fair enough, but Leeds aren't that good. But then, on the other hand, Leeds have beaten Saints and Catalans. But I still don't think they're that good.

Maybe, but then Leeds have turned us over a few times recently and seem to have the beating of Wigan when the game is a slog/forwards battle. Pretty much like Catalans did to us recently as well - close down Field and make it a forward battle and Wigan struggle.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:15 pm  

Just to emphasize the work done by the Wigan forwards.
We have four of the top twenty tacklers in Superleague, Smithies, Havard, Powell and Farrell.

Two of those some fans want rid of.

Re: Forwards Watch 2023 : Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:56 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

It isn't though is it?
What about tackles made, marker tackles, carries etc etc,.

Fans tend to see the spectacular, rather than the workmanlike.

Brian McTigue was one of the best prop forwards I ever saw, but he never ran 100 metres in a game ever.

I already posted on another thread how our props compare to others in the league in terms of tackles, tackle efficiency and errors and penalties.

They all pale in comparison.

All-round our props do less work than others in the league - a plain fact.