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Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:14 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:14 pm  

User avatarMoe syslak wrote:
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Egg Chasing wrote:

93/94

Wigan 46
Bradford 46
Warrington 46
Cas 39
Halifax 36

"

Bloody Russell Smith!! :SHOOT: :lol:
'I've done things i'm not proud of. And the things i am proud of,.......well they're disgusting'
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:14 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:14 pm  

Stu M wrote:
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Egg Chasing wrote:
You claimed it was a level playing field now in an attempt to undermine our success like every fan of every other club does which as I've evidenced it clearly isn't.

You also said.....................



I can easily use stats to flip your argument on its head.

Nearly half of your 7 titles in a row were won easily (7 pts, 8 pts, 8 pts)

And for all your CC wins the opponents only had to win a small amount of games to get there so there will naturally be lots more different opponents. Quite why you compared CC back then to now I have no idea. The concept hasn't changed, you still only need to win 3 games to get to the Final
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:22 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:22 pm  

User avatarEgg Chasing wrote:
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Stu M wrote:
Quite why you compared CC back then to now I have no idea. The concept hasn't changed, you still only need to win 3 games to get to the Final


Because despite this new amazing level playing field since nasty Wigan were stopped from winning everything, it has still brought the same number of different sides to the final than it did before. What exactly has been "levelled up"

It is still dependant on who has the most money and the best academies etc etc just as it did in 1988, 1992 and 1995.
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:25 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:25 pm  

Stu M wrote:
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Egg Chasing wrote:
What exactly has been "levelled up"


Er

A Salary Cap
Every team being full-time
Improved S & C at each club
All of the traditional big teams having Academies/Reserves
Sport science and access to technology to prevent injuries and fatigue
Better pitches
Better training facilities

All just off the top of my head

When was the last time a club paid a big transfer fee?
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:30 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:30 pm  

User avatarEgg Chasing wrote:
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Stu M wrote:
Er

A Salary Cap
Every team being full-time
Improved S & C at each club
All of the traditional big teams having Academies/Reserves
Sport science and access to technology to prevent injuries and fatigue
Better pitches
Better training facilities

All just off the top of my head

When was the last time a club paid a big transfer fee?


A Salary Cap - That not every club spends up to so some sides have a better squad than others
Every team being full-time - Nothing stopping that in 1992. We followed suit why didn't everyone else.
Improved S & C at each club - See above
All of the traditional big teams having Academies/Reserves - See above (although pretty sure most sides had an alliance and an academy back then)
Sport science and access to technology to prevent injuries and fatigue - Give you that one, but again some sides have more money to spend on these than others
Better pitches - You'd hope so
Better training facilities - We used to train on a field at the back of the Kop

All of that has led to less league winners in the last 25 years than the previous 25 though
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:53 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:53 pm  
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Every team ran a reserve side back then, most teams had academy/colts teams Every team "could " spend what they wanted, it was their decision.
Did Saints spend the same as Liverpool City or Wigan the same as Blackpool Borough?

As I've said often enough Andy Farrell was an apprentice joiner with Wigan council when he played in his 1st Challenge Cup Final, watch his recent interview with Kris Radlinski.

The salary cap whereby all teams can spend up to a pre determined ££ was only introduced in 2002.
SAINTS THE ORIGINAL AND PERENNIAL CHEATS

For sale full Saints kit (circa 1989). Shirts in pristine condition, but shorts badly soiled.

For 27 - 0 you get a trophy
For 75 - 0 you get sod all.

Wigan had eight in a row
Saints have five in a row
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:13 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:13 pm  

User avatarThe Reaper wrote:
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NickyKiss wrote:
They’re the best side of the last 10 years or so but the game here is in the dumps. They’re not even close to being the best Saints side of the Superleague era and that’s if we go all Saints fan and ignore the 100 years before Superleague.

He’s a young kid in fairness, so his statement means very little, as his memory probably goes back to 2008-2010 at best.

I’ve been hearing this line trotted out for years about the quality of the game being much worse than before etc. Every time I watch a game back from the early and mid 00s which are considered the golden era of super league, I can’t help but see how absolutely awful the level of defending was. Yes the attack was great, but the standard of defending was dog and it makes the attacking look a lot better. And you had teams regularly getting pumped by 70/80 points. Don’t think it speaks to the quality really being loads better.

Reality is every generation says this about whatever sport they’re talking about. It’s just nostalgia and nothing more. In reality the game is 1000x faster than it was back then. More handling errors probably because of that fact but in my opinion at least it’s a much better spectacle because of that increase in intensity.
The only reason they look up to you is because they chose to kneel.
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:39 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:39 pm  

User avatarNickyKiss wrote:
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The Reaper wrote:
I’ve been hearing this line trotted out for years about the quality of the game being much worse than before etc. Every time I watch a game back from the early and mid 00s which are considered the golden era of super league, I can’t help but see how absolutely awful the level of defending was. Yes the attack was great, but the standard of defending was dog and it makes the attacking look a lot better. And you had teams regularly getting pumped by 70/80 points. Don’t think it speaks to the quality really being loads better.

Reality is every generation says this about whatever sport they’re talking about. It’s just nostalgia and nothing more. In reality the game is 1000x faster than it was back then. More handling errors probably because of that fact but in my opinion at least it’s a much better spectacle because of that increase in intensity.


I saw a Saints fan say on Twitter that he refuses to have it that players now are worse than the early 2000’s across the league and therefore this is a side comparable and maybe better than any side in this era of Superleague. What he is ignoring is that a a good few of our best players are now in the NRL and the quality of import is drastically down on those of the early 2000’s. If Saints fans want to think it’s nostalgia to believe sides including Lyon, Long, Cunningham, Graham, Prime Roby, Sculthorpe etc wouldn’t comfortably beat this one then so be it.

You’re beating all before you to Grand Finals and that’s great for you but if we compare the teams you’ve beat in these finals to teams losing finals in the early 2000’s it’s chalk and cheese. We lost a final to you guys with a side containing Radlinski, Renouf, Jason Robinson, Terry Newton, Andy Farrell etc. That side would’ve put 30 on our final team in 2020 and would beat this Saints side with some to spare and again believe that is nostalgia all you like but the overall quality of the teams over here are as low as I can remember.

Saints are the best side of the last 5 years by an absolute mile but I’d take a few teams just in the Superleague era ahead of them. Look at the World Club Challenge results from the early 2000’s to recent years and try and tell me the quality of sides hasn’t dropped off a cliff here.
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:00 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:00 pm  

User avatarThe Reaper wrote:
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NickyKiss wrote:
I saw a Saints fan say on Twitter that he refuses to have it that players now are worse than the early 2000’s across the league and therefore this is a side comparable and maybe better than any side in this era of Superleague. What he is ignoring is that a a good few of our best players are now in the NRL and the quality of import is drastically down on those of the early 2000’s. If Saints fans want to think it’s nostalgia to believe sides including Lyon, Long, Cunningham, Graham, Prime Roby, Sculthorpe etc wouldn’t comfortably beat this one then so be it.

You’re beating all before you to Grand Finals and that’s great for you but if we compare the teams you’ve beat in these finals to teams losing finals in the early 2000’s it’s chalk and cheese. We lost a final to you guys with a side containing Radlinski, Renouf, Jason Robinson, Terry Newton, Andy Farrell etc. That side would’ve put 30 on our final team in 2020 and would beat this Saints side with some to spare and again believe that is nostalgia all you like but the overall quality of the teams over here are as low as I can remember.

Saints are the best side of the last 5 years by an absolute mile but I’d take a few teams just in the Superleague era ahead of them. Look at the World Club Challenge results from the early 2000’s to recent years and try and tell me the quality of sides hasn’t dropped off a cliff here.


When it comes to the top teams you’re probably right, although I do think nostalgia plays a part in thinking that those players are head and shoulders above todays players. You never really appreciate what’s going on right now until it’s in the past. There’s a fair few players going around today that I think could play in those teams just fine and not be out of place. Who’s to say people like Lomax, Makinson, Walmsley, Farell, McIlorum, Tomkins won’t be held in similar esteem 15 years from now.

The quality throughout the league is largely better though I think. There’s much better matches on a general week to week basis.
The only reason they look up to you is because they chose to kneel.
Re: Welsby Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 pm  
Re: Welsby
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 pm  

User avatarNickyKiss wrote:
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The quality is spread around more for sure, that’s the salary cap for you. Our best sides now aren’t as good in quality imo as the best teams in the early 2000’s but then the worst teams probably aren’t as bad as some of the worst ones from that time either. The salary cap was brought in to level things ‘up’ but all it’s ever done for me is level things ‘down’ and that can’t be right.

It’s probably the wrong time for a debate about the leagues quality though. I really don’t want to sound like a bitter Wigan fan. It’s not this Saints teams fault if the overall quality of the league isn’t where we’d like it to be. You’re playing under the same conditions as everyone else and have consistently been better than everyone else for 5 seasons now. I look at us this season and we’ve improved and part of that is because Saints are making us improve and driving standards. I shudder to think what a bad place this league would be in if Saints were not making teams work to improve. It isn’t rocket science what Saints have done this last few seasons. It’s built on commitment, desire, hard work and gaining the small percentage wins. Too many teams want to cut corners and Saints have never done that.
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