FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - This is not a cycle - what can other clubs do?
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator12568
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 01 200717 years120th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 23:2225th Mar 24 07:35LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leicestershire.
Signature
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Moderator

This is not a cycle - what can other clubs do? : Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:53 pm  
For the first 15 or 20 years of SL it was very possible to see the dominance of a few clubs as one of the sport’s natural cycles. To me, and I don’t think I’m alone in this, it now feels like a permanent hegemony, and that realisation requires some sort of adjustment - initially from the non-hegemonic faction.

None of the options are hugely palatable but those that occur to me are:

1. I don’t think it is very tenable anymore but we should acknowledge the ‘try harder/follow the example of the big clubs’ argument, which has been the ‘this is just a natural cycle’ orthodoxy for a long time. Such a long time that I feel like it doesn’t now deserve much attention. Optimistic fans of also ran clubs, holding out for a super rich benefactor or believing that this next batch of academy graduates must surely, after so many false dawns, represent a golden generation may disagree and want to wait longer. Even I want to see what new coach can do at Hull KR but optimism seems to be, at this point, in short supply. So, moving on…

2. Make a mental adjustment, or the ‘Scottish Football’ solution. Accept that a small number of clubs will continue to dominate the sport over the long-term, essentially in a higher intensity competition, within and central to the wider league programme, with other clubs providing a backdrop and their fans realigning their ambitions to be… well, less ambitious. The Hull derby might forever more be two bald men fighting over a comb, but it can still be fun and entertaining.

3. Do something radical to have a competitive top flight team to support. I’m thinking something like a part-time league including Cas, Wakefield, Featherstone, Doncaster, Sheffield, York, Hull FC and Hull KR feeding in to a full time MEGATEAM. You could have another based on Keighley, Batley, Dewsbury, Hudds, Fax and Bradford. I know, it’s a bit extreme… but when the other options I see are continually having hopes exposed as baseless or giving up on hope as we currently define it in RL, it seems less so.
RankPostsTeam
Academy Player131No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 15 20222 years246th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
10th May 23 18:4219th Apr 23 07:51LINK
Milestone Posts
100
200
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

I think the fact only Wigan, Leeds, Saints and Bradford have won the GF masks that others have been 80 mins from doing so (Salford, Catalans, Wires and Castleford all in the last few years).

So yes, the name on the trophy doesn't change much, but the finalists do - so it's far from stagnant.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator12568
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 01 200717 years120th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 23:2225th Mar 24 07:35LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leicestershire.
Signature
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Moderator

shinymcshine241 wrote:
I think the fact only Wigan, Leeds, Saints and Bradford have won the GF masks that others have been 80 mins from doing so (Salford, Catalans, Wires and Castleford all in the last few years).

So yes, the name on the trophy doesn't change much, but the finalists do - so it's far from stagnant.


I take your point, and if any of those teams had got over the line it’d feel quite a bit different. Wire had enough bites at the apple and Cas were good enough in 2017 that one or both really should have done. Around the mid-2010s it felt like there was a little window of opportunity - annoyingly for me Hull FC seized the opportunity in the CC while Hull KR… well, suffice to say Hull KR didn’t.

It feels like the window is closed now. Leeds’s (by their standards) poop period looks to be ending, and Matt Peet seems to be doing a good job at Wigan. Making a GF, Salford 2019-style, probably is the height of ambition for half SL for the next 10 years. Scoring a try and not being humiliated - that’d be nice. But not nice or likely enough to enjoy SL as a whole.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member29192No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 10 200321 years87th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Mar 24 00:255th Mar 24 23:56LINK
Milestone Posts
25000
30000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Warrington

I can't help but look at the other Grand Final this weekend as the answer. A Saints v Leeds academy Grand Final. That is why the clubs that win SL win SL. Because they have a feeder system that works (Warrington do too, but they neglect it and aren't patient enough). The likes of Saints, Leeds and Wigan have academy players banging down the door to get a chance. Other clubs aren't allowed a scholarship setup. That is one of the biggest things IMG need to fix. Every club in Super League AND the Championship should be made to run a proper scholarship programme and academy. If they won't or can't afford it, they really don't deserve to be in those competitions, get them out and replace them with clubs that will.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator8080
JoinedServiceReputation
Jan 02 200222 years84th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 12:1824th Mar 24 17:44LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
LS9
Signature
//www.twitter.com/pumpetypump
Moderator

Saddened! wrote:
Every club in Super League AND the Championship should be made to run a proper scholarship programme and academy. If they won't or can't afford it, they really don't deserve to be in those competitions, get them out and replace them with clubs that will.


Nonsense. I think the gurning lump of gristle from Cumbria was right in trying to remove some of the Academies. The only way we can thrive as a sport is by narrowing the amount of player pathways.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator12568
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 01 200717 years120th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 23:2225th Mar 24 07:35LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leicestershire.
Signature
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Moderator

Saddened! wrote:
I can't help but look at the other Grand Final this weekend as the answer. A Saints v Leeds academy Grand Final. That is why the clubs that win SL win SL. Because they have a feeder system that works (Warrington do too, but they neglect it and aren't patient enough). The likes of Saints, Leeds and Wigan have academy players banging down the door to get a chance. Other clubs aren't allowed a scholarship setup. That is one of the biggest things IMG need to fix. Every club in Super League AND the Championship should be made to run a proper scholarship programme and academy. If they won't or can't afford it, they really don't deserve to be in those competitions, get them out and replace them with clubs that will.


I think it is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. It could work in a better balanced competition but doesn’t work to achieve rebalancing. Cas and Salford have achieved relative success taking different approaches that suit them. If we want a one size fits all solution we need clubs that are more similar in size.

‘Get them out and replace them’… replace them with who? I don’t think many/any replacements exist… currently. Realistically, imo, we accept the status quo, imbalances and all, or go for a major restructure.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member29192No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 10 200321 years87th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Mar 24 00:255th Mar 24 23:56LINK
Milestone Posts
25000
30000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Warrington

Mild Rover wrote:
I think it is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. It could work in a better balanced competition but doesn’t work to achieve rebalancing. Cas and Salford have achieved relative success taking different approaches that suit them. If we want a one size fits all solution we need clubs that are more similar in size.

‘Get them out and replace them’… replace them with who? I don’t think many/any replacements exist… currently. Realistically, imo, we accept the status quo, imbalances and all, or go for a major restructure.


It is the biggest single reason Saints are successful. Salford are a classic example of a savvy group of people identifying a load of misfits and fringe players with talent and assembling something competitive on a budget. They reached the semi final and were brilliant to watch at times, but it's all so short lived. They're losing players to mid-table sides and once Croft moves on they're back to having to do another big rebuild. The strength of those is dictated by the availability of players and eventually they'll have a bad year and go down. That will then kick off a major financial meltdown and it's unlikely they'd ever come back.

There's definitely enough talent around for each team to have their own academy and it doesn't cost much.

As for the replacements, the likes of Featherstone, Leigh, York would all run academies if you required it of them I'd bet. I know Salford want to, they've applied time and time again for the same status as the big clubs. They are desperate to run one and there is definitely the talent around to have a competitive team too.

I really don't see what reducing the number of academies does. If anything it just strengthens the big clubs and weakens the weakest, so you end up the situation we've got now with only three clubs in the division who have ever won it.

Another wild suggestion is the return of town teams. Have regional centres of excellence for the best players in each region and have those drafted into the professional clubs. That means the big clubs can't just sweep up all the talent.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member29192No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 10 200321 years87th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Mar 24 00:255th Mar 24 23:56LINK
Milestone Posts
25000
30000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Warrington

Pumpetypump wrote:
Nonsense. I think the gurning lump of gristle from Cumbria was right in trying to remove some of the Academies. The only way we can thrive as a sport is by narrowing the amount of player pathways.


I take it this is sarcasm? I can't really tell anymore, think I'm getting to that age.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach11779No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Apr 13 201014 years71st
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 22:3025th Mar 24 15:29LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Well for a start referees can stop pandering to the big clubs especially at their grounds.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Moderator12568
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 01 200717 years120th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
28th Mar 24 23:2225th Mar 24 07:35LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leicestershire.
Signature
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Moderator

Willzay wrote:
Well for a start referees can stop pandering to the big clubs especially at their grounds.


If they do pander to big clubs, then they could stop... but they likely won't. Why would that change if nothing else does? If the other clubs in SL were bigger, then that'd change perceptions and help overcome any learned expectations and unconscious biases.
Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 170 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to The Virtual Terrace


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
35m
Smith - should he stay or should he go
weaver93
359
47m
TV games not Wire
rubber ducki
2864
51m
The Good Friday Derby Massacre
Tarquin Fueg
139
Recent
Ky Rodwell
Spookisback
109
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
50s
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
34290
53s
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
1386
1m
Fevround 2
Trojan Horse
91
1m
Ky Rodwell
Spookisback
109
2m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
56011
2m
The Good Friday Derby Massacre
Tarquin Fueg
139
2m
Smith out ASAP
Backwoodsman
138
2m
Rd 6 I Cas A
Jack Burton
109
3m
Saints a
WWste
23
3m
WIRE YED Prediction Competition Catalans Home
Wanderer
17
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhinos Go Level Top
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
York - 14th April
Spookisback
10
TODAY
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
TODAY
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
Cokey
4
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
Smiffy27
17
TODAY
The Wigan Way - New Podcast - Chairman Special
Jukesays
1
TODAY
Dons v Swinton Lions 30 June 2024
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad for Sheffield
AdamH
1
TODAY
London Away
Fartown58
1
TODAY
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
TODAY
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
TODAY
Saints a
WWste
23
TODAY
Leon Ruan signs on loan
Jemmo
2
TODAY
Wardle
Jo Jumbuck
3
TODAY
Huddersfield - Home
Fartown58
6
TODAY
Max Wood on loan to Bradford 2 weeks
rubber ducki
7
TODAY
Jake Wardle 5 Year deal
Zig
22
TODAY
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
PopTart
27
TODAY
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangements
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhino..
124
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangeme..
551
2024 Challenge Cup Quarter Fin..
677
Easy Does It For The Dragons A..
586
Warrington Demolish London For..
688
Leigh Leopards Beat Plucky Fea..
741
Saints Triumph Over Disappoint..
720
Easy Win for the Wolves Over L..
956
Dragons Condemn Castleford To ..
928
Leigh Leopards Secure First Po..
1074
St Helens Tame The Rhinos To W..
1046
Wigan Warriors Come From Behin..
1112
Betfred Championship and Leagu..
1086
2024 Challenge Cup Sixth Round..
3868
Featherstone Win Extra Time Cu..
1205
POSTSONLINEREGISTRATIONSRECORD
19.57M 2,172 80,00114,103
LOGIN HERE
or REGISTER for more features!.

When you register you get access to the live match scores, live match chat and you can post in the discussions on the forums.
RLFANS Match Centre
 TODAY
National Rugby League 2024-R4
05:05
Souths
v
Canterbury
09:05
Brisbane
v
NQL Cowboys
Mens Super League XXVIII-R6
12:30
Hull KR
v
Hull FC
Championship 2024-R2
14:00
Widnes
v
Swinton
Mens Super League XXVIII-R6
15:00
St.Helens
v
Wigan
Championship 2024-R2
15:00
Whitehaven
v
Barrow
17:00
Dewsbury
v
Batley
18:00
Featherstone
v
Wakefield
19:30
Bradford
v
Halifax
19:30
Doncaster
v
Sheffield
League One 2024-R2
19:30
Hunslet
v
Keighley
 TOMORROW
National Rugby League 2024-R4
06:30
St.George
v
Manly
08:35
Gold Coast
v
Dolphins
Mens Super League XXVIII-R6
15:00
Warrington
v
Catalans
League One 2024-R2
15:00
Newcastle
v
Workington
ALL SCORES PROVIDED BY RLFANS.COM (SETTINGS)
Matches on TV
Fri 29th Mar
SL
12:30
Hull KR-Hull FC
SL
15:00
St.Helens-Wigan
Sat 30th Mar
SL
15:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
17:30
Salford-Leigh
Sun 31st Mar
SL
15:00
LondonB-Huddersfield
L1
15:00
Oldham-Rochdale
Thu 4th Apr
SL
20:00
Leigh-Wigan
Fri 5th Apr
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
Hull KR-LondonB
SL
20:00
Leeds-Warrington
Sat 6th Apr
SL
15:00
Hull FC-Huddersfield
SL
17:30
Catalans-St.Helens
Sat 13th Apr
CC2024
17:00
Hull KR-Leigh
Sun 14th Apr
CC2024
16:30
St.Helens-Warrington
Fri 19th Apr
SL
20:00
Leeds-Huddersfield
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull FC
SL
20:00
Wigan-Castleford
Sat 20th Apr
SL
15:00
Warrington-Leigh
SL
17:30
Catalans-Hull KR
Sun 21st Apr
SL
15:00
LondonB-Salford
Thu 28th Mar
SL 6 Castleford6-26Leeds
NRL 4 Sydney16-22Penrith
Sun 24th Mar
CC2024 6 Halifax4-40Catalans
NRL 3 Parramatta28-24Manly
NRL 3 Newcastle14-12Melbourne
L1 1 Cornwall16-40Crusaders
L1 1 Keighley58-16Workington
L1 1 Midlands70-16Newcastle
L1 1 Rochdale24-26Hunslet
WOMCC2024 2 FeatherstoneW38-6Shef W
WOMCC2024 2 BarrowW18-20WiganW
WOMCC2024 2 LonB W6-24Wire W
WOMCC2024 2 HKR Wom0-90LeedsW
WOMCC2024 2 Lei L W6-36Hudds W
Sat 23rd Mar
CC2024 6 Batley14-28Castleford
CC2024 6 Huddersfield50-6Hull FC
CC2024 6 Leigh26-14Featherstone
CC2024 6 Warrington42-0LondonB
NRL 3 Canterbury32-0Gold Coast
NRL 3 St.George24-46NQL Cowboys
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Warrington 5 156 58 98 8
Wigan 4 144 54 90 8
St.Helens 5 118 40 78 8
Catalans 5 126 54 72 8
Leeds 6 108 88 20 8
Hull KR 5 98 63 35 6
 
Salford 5 95 96 -1 6
Huddersfield 5 94 98 -4 4
Leigh 4 82 54 28 2
Hull FC 5 54 162 -108 2
Castleford 6 62 204 -142 0
LondonB 5 54 220 -166 0
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Widnes 1 44 8 36 2
Wakefield 1 42 12 30 2
Doncaster 1 36 20 16 2
Halifax 1 24 10 14 2
Featherstone 1 24 20 4 2
Sheffield 1 24 22 2 2
 
Whitehaven 1 18 16 2 2
Toulouse 1 22 24 -2 0
Swinton 1 16 18 -2 0
Batley 1 20 24 -4 0
Dewsbury 1 10 24 -14 0
York 1 20 36 -16 0
Bradford 1 12 42 -30 0
Barrow 1 8 44 -36 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
35m
Smith - should he stay or should he go
weaver93
359
47m
TV games not Wire
rubber ducki
2864
51m
The Good Friday Derby Massacre
Tarquin Fueg
139
Recent
Ky Rodwell
Spookisback
109
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
50s
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
34290
53s
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
1386
1m
Fevround 2
Trojan Horse
91
1m
Ky Rodwell
Spookisback
109
2m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
56011
2m
The Good Friday Derby Massacre
Tarquin Fueg
139
2m
Smith out ASAP
Backwoodsman
138
2m
Rd 6 I Cas A
Jack Burton
109
3m
Saints a
WWste
23
3m
WIRE YED Prediction Competition Catalans Home
Wanderer
17
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhinos Go Level Top
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
York - 14th April
Spookisback
10
TODAY
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
TODAY
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
Cokey
4
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
Smiffy27
17
TODAY
The Wigan Way - New Podcast - Chairman Special
Jukesays
1
TODAY
Dons v Swinton Lions 30 June 2024
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad for Sheffield
AdamH
1
TODAY
London Away
Fartown58
1
TODAY
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
TODAY
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
TODAY
Saints a
WWste
23
TODAY
Leon Ruan signs on loan
Jemmo
2
TODAY
Wardle
Jo Jumbuck
3
TODAY
Huddersfield - Home
Fartown58
6
TODAY
Max Wood on loan to Bradford 2 weeks
rubber ducki
7
TODAY
Jake Wardle 5 Year deal
Zig
22
TODAY
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
PopTart
27
TODAY
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangements
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Another Tigers Defeat As Rhino..
124
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangeme..
551
2024 Challenge Cup Quarter Fin..
677
Easy Does It For The Dragons A..
586
Warrington Demolish London For..
688
Leigh Leopards Beat Plucky Fea..
741
Saints Triumph Over Disappoint..
720
Easy Win for the Wolves Over L..
956
Dragons Condemn Castleford To ..
928
Leigh Leopards Secure First Po..
1074
St Helens Tame The Rhinos To W..
1046
Wigan Warriors Come From Behin..
1112
Betfred Championship and Leagu..
1086
2024 Challenge Cup Sixth Round..
3868
Featherstone Win Extra Time Cu..
1205


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!