Re: Bulls are going out of business : Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:08 pm  

Barnacle Bill wrote:

I think the bank did that already, which seems to have caused the problem in the first place.

Yea it sounds like that, but the sky tv money and possibly other funding that the govening body distribute arent a right,you have to justify it.Surely Bradford now scratching around to pay debts that were avoidable isnt the problem for the rfl or the game as a whole

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:14 pm  

If the version of events that a number of us have heard parts of, and have pieced together tonight, is broadly correct, then much of the present crisis is due to unexpected actions taken by third parties (not HMRC) in recent weeks that no club lacking a rich owner could anticipate or cover.

I'd prefer to get more of the tale before being more specific, but so far the tentative conclusion is that the club's plans and forecasts were blown out of the window by recent events it could not have reasonably foreseen.

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:32 am  

Sorry if I've missed this in the thread, how much did Bradford owe the RFL and for what?

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:11 am  

Adeybull wrote:

If the version of events that a number of us have heard parts of, and have pieced together tonight, is broadly correct, then much of the present crisis is due to unexpected actions taken by third parties (not HMRC) in recent weeks that no club lacking a rich owner could anticipate or cover.

I'd prefer to get more of the tale before being more specific, but so far the tentative conclusion is that the club's plans and forecasts were blown out of the window by recent events it could not have reasonably foreseen.

Bulls and RFL collude in "no one would have seen it coming" statement shocker!

Be careful Adey mate - you were let down before

Hope the Bulls survive - for mine, I wouldn't bail out that board of yours, let administration run its course and come back stronger.

But I know nothing of what's happening! All the best to you cattle all the same!

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:47 am  

Adeybull wrote:

If the version of events that a number of us have heard parts of, and have pieced together tonight, is broadly correct, then much of the present crisis is due to unexpected actions taken by third parties (not HMRC) in recent weeks that no club lacking a rich owner could anticipate or cover.

I'd prefer to get more of the tale before being more specific, but so far the tentative conclusion is that the club's plans and forecasts were blown out of the window by recent events it could not have reasonably foreseen.

On the contrary it seems like this situation has been brewing for ages. Like you I'm just piecing together scraps of info but clearly at some point the Bulls have required a substantial input of cash from the RFL (one poster on totalrl.com says this was a £700,000 loan early in 2011). The suggestion is that Bradford then struggled to meet the repayments on the loan and in order to protect their monies and also secure RL at Odsal in the future, the RFL purchased the Bulls' lease (the above source says for £1.2m, Sporting Life states £2m). It maybe that the bank trousered the difference to pay off the existing o/d and then Oinevitably refused to renew the facility as the club no longer held the asset of the Odsal lease. So far from being a sudden an unexpected development, the Bulls current plight seems to have been brewing for some time.
Even if the RFL hadn't bought the lease, presumably Bradford would have maxed out on their o/d facility sooner rather than later at which point the club would have lost its home and the RFL a ton of cash.

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:04 pm  

Steve Fox wrote:

On the contrary it seems like this situation has been brewing for ages. Like you I'm just piecing together scraps of info but clearly at some point the Bulls have required a substantial input of cash from the RFL (one poster on totalrl.com says this was a £700,000 loan early in 2011). The suggestion is that Bradford then struggled to meet the repayments on the loan and in order to protect their monies and also secure RL at Odsal in the future, the RFL purchased the Bulls' lease (the above source says for £1.2m, Sporting Life states £2m). It maybe that the bank trousered the difference to pay off the existing o/d and then Oinevitably refused to renew the facility as the club no longer held the asset of the Odsal lease. So far from being a sudden an unexpected development, the Bulls current plight seems to have been brewing for some time.
Even if the RFL hadn't bought the lease, presumably Bradford would have maxed out on their o/d facility sooner rather than later at which point the club would have lost its home and the RFL a ton of cash.

Not quite.

It seems the Bulls indeed borrowed £700k in 2011 from the RFL (secured ion the assets by a second charge, incidentally - visible to all at Companies House from Jan 2011). When I put the £700k figure to the CEO he did not deny it.

It seems to me the deal to sell the stadium to the RFL was at least in part due to the club not being in a position to repay that loan. So the RFL got an asset instead. If so, puts Odsalgate 2012 into a whole new light now, eh?

I understand the loan to the RFL was not to be repaid immediately, so the club could use the funds from the sale to deal with other pressing issues (including tax, I think) and not have to rely on using the bank overdraft (I surmise).

It then seems that (for reasons I am unclear about) the RFL required the loan to be repaid now rather than when was originally (supposedly) agreed. SOmetime in the last few weeks.

The bank, it appears to me (and knowing from the horse's mouth they have been keen to get out of exposure to RL clubs for years) saw the cash coming in, and did what banks so often do and grabbed it and reduced the facility as a result. The Bulls had actually asked the bank for a small increase to help plug the gap for a few weeks because of the RFL loan repayment. The bank instead pulled most of the facility. I gather this was last week.

So the club appears (as far as I can deduce, anyway) to have been hit by a double-whammy: RFL requires earlier repayment of loan; Bulls look to use whole overdraft facility, and a bit more, to plug the gap for a few weeks; bank instead pulls rug from under them.

Also, there would be no value to the bank in the old Odsal lease in the event of insolvency, since it would be voided and the site revert to the council. So why would the bank treat it as the main security? Anyone?

Now if the above, which is a combination of public information, things I have been told and personal deduction, is anything like correct, how does that now make it look?

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:20 pm  

Adeybull wrote:

Now if the above, which is a combination of public information, things I have been told and personal deduction, is anything like correct, how does that now make it look?

Like a small plate of facts smothered in a gallon of supposition sauce?

The key question in all of that is why did the Bulls find themselves having to borrow £700k from the RFL in the first place, rather than through normal commercial routes?

Were they really that toxic or lacking in assets that no commercial lender would touch them?

If so, how did the club to get into that state in the first place?

It's ok for Bulls BoD to point fingers at the RFL, at RBS or even at other clubs, but there has been a seriously high level of mismanagement at the club. The whole business appears to have been precariously tiered like a house of cards and at the first sign of a stiff breeze has toppled over.

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:26 pm  

if the RFL and the Bulls had a loan agreement in place, and presumably a repayment schedule - how could the RFL then demand sudden repayment? surely there was payment terms - and therefore the RFL cant just demand full repayment.

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:32 pm  

Adeybull wrote:

Not quite.

It seems the Bulls indeed borrowed £700k in 2011 from the RFL (secured ion the assets by a second charge, incidentally - visible to all at Companies House from Jan 2011). When I put the £700k figure to the CEO he did not deny it.

It seems to me the deal to sell the stadium to the RFL was at least in part due to the club not being in a position to repay that loan. So the RFL got an asset instead. If so, puts Odsalgate 2012 into a whole new light now, eh?

I understand the loan to the RFL was not to be repaid immediately, so the club could use the funds from the sale to deal with other pressing issues (including tax, I think) and not have to rely on using the bank overdraft (I surmise).

It then seems that (for reasons I am unclear about) the RFL required the loan to be repaid now rather than when was originally (supposedly) agreed. SOmetime in the last few weeks.

The bank, it appears to me (and knowing from the horse's mouth they have been keen to get out of exposure to RL clubs for years) saw the cash coming in, and did what banks so often do and grabbed it and reduced the facility as a result. The Bulls had actually asked the bank for a small increase to help plug the gap for a few weeks because of the RFL loan repayment. The bank instead pulled most of the facility. I gather this was last week.

So the club appears (as far as I can deduce, anyway) to have been hit by a double-whammy: RFL requires earlier repayment of loan; Bulls look to use whole overdraft facility, and a bit more, to plug the gap for a few weeks; bank instead pulls rug from under them.

Also, there would be no value to the bank in the old Odsal lease in the event of insolvency, since it would be voided and the site revert to the council. So why would the bank treat it as the main security? Anyone?

Now if the above, which is a combination of public information, things I have been told and personal deduction, is anything like correct, how does that now make it look?

Come on Adey - If this is the true story, and we don't know, why does any bank or creditor call in their overdraft/loan on any company? For one main reason, they are at their limit or even over exposed and have grave doubts about the ability of said company to pay back their debts going forward! They also know this might lead to them getting little or no money back, but they can see no other way of forcing the issue and don't want to expose themselves for further or longer!

It is not rocket science is it!

However, this is a company and a sports club, so the BOD have taken the oppotuinity to emotionally blackmail the key ingredient that set them apart from most other companies... fans!

So, what better way to cover your own backside and poor management by getting the fans to pay your debt for you!

Come on Addy, wake up and smell the coffee... you have £100k there that has been pledged that Bullbuilder as a trust company could quickly turn from pledges to the club into money into an escrow account hled by Bullbuilder. Given that Andrew Glover bought Wakey, who owed out £700k, from O'Hara for £35k, I reckon Bullbuilder could have the club off the adminstraor for less than £100k. Raise the £500k and you have a nice little sum to keep the club going for a few months while you sweet talk some investors... if of course a new buyer, like Andrew, does not step in and beat Bullbuilder to it.

I think Bullbuilder and other prominent fans need to grow some balls... and quick!

Re: Bulls are going out of business : Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:34 pm  

EHW wrote:

if the RFL and the Bulls had a loan agreement in place, and presumably a repayment schedule - how could the RFL then demand sudden repayment? surely there was payment terms - and therefore the RFL cant just demand full repayment.

Not if they default...